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  • Okay, she was sick from the Ricin, but did Walt make a fatal error in telling her what the poison was and that he'd slipped it to her?  She could call an ambulance and recover in hospital!!  I actually expected (and wanted) to see her drop dead.

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    • Presque Vu13 wrote:
      Okay, she was sick from the Ricin, but did Walt make a fatal error in telling her what the poison was and that he'd slipped it to her?  She could call an ambulance and recover in hospital!!  It may sound sadistic, but I expected (and wanted) to see her drop dead.

      Nope, there is no known antidote against that kind of Ricin poisoning. The only substances (still under research) that would help need to be taken in advance. And even then your best chance is only 50%...

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    • I think she would then have to tell them what poisoned her and who poisoned her and why. The police might then find a connection with Walter and the Blue meth and that would land her in prison. 

      She would then have the choice of dying or stay in prison. 

      That's how I see it. 

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    • I don't think Walter would have told Lydia that he had poisoned her with ricin, unless he was absolutely sure that she was going was to die from it. He wouldn't give her the chance to get away, telling her was his ego, like saying "I won" after killing Gus Fring, like "I beat you Lydia, goodbye". 

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    • ArakinTheWarden wrote:
      I think she would then have to tell them what poisoned her and who poisoned her and why.

      "Whoopsie, I must have confused these castor beans from that nice tree in my garden with my sedation pills, which I always grind down for a better effect"

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    • There is no antidote for ricin. So, even if she went to hospital, tell then about it she would still die.

      She is dead. End of story.

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    • It's possible, but it seems like it's no guarantee: http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/ricinpoisoning.htm

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    • Trouble is, Walt only dosed a single packet of Stevia, and (according to Wikipedia) you'd need over 2.25 grams of ricin to guarantee lethality in a 125 pound person. 

      Stevia packets are only 1 gram. The get a lethal dose in, the packet would have to be over 2.25 parts ricin to each part sweetener, which seems unlikely to succeed. The weight would be off, there'd be a bad taste, etc. 

      It's a minor thing, but a thing.

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    • Danares
      Danares removed this reply because:
      sorry, that LD50 is for injection or inhalation
      18:52, September 30, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • Lydia is fictional character in a series. That series is over. There will never be a sequel. So, Lydia is dead. Forever and ever.

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    • Chetman wrote:
      Trouble is, Walt only dosed a single packet of Stevia, and (according to Wikipedia) you'd need over 2.25 grams of ricin to guarantee lethality in a 125 pound person. 

      The LD50 (lethal dose at which the chance of survival is 50%) varies in literature from source to source, I've seen numbers for oral consumption by humans as low as 3-5 µg/kg (that's micrograms = 1/1000000 of a gram).

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    • Chetman wrote:
      Trouble is, Walt only dosed a single packet of Stevia, and (according to Wikipedia) you'd need over 2.25 grams of ricin to guarantee lethality in a 125 pound person. 

      Stevia packets are only 1 gram. The get a lethal dose in, the packet would have to be over 2.25 parts ricin to each part sweetener, which seems unlikely to succeed. The weight would be off, there'd be a bad taste, etc. 

      It's a minor thing, but a thing.

      The ricin in the vial was believed to be lethal for 3 people,  that would be about 7 grams, almost a quarter ounce, which that small vial could not contain

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    • Ingested ricin isn't as inevitably fatal as injected or breathed because it's effects are limited to the digestive track.  Read the Wikipedia entry.

      But my guess is that the twitchy woman is dead.

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    • She is going to die for sure, but technically, as far as the show goes, she is still alive, as she would die a day or two after the ending scene.

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    • Max ba wrote:
      Chetman wrote:
      Trouble is, Walt only dosed a single packet of Stevia, and (according to Wikipedia) you'd need over 2.25 grams of ricin to guarantee lethality in a 125 pound person. 

      Stevia packets are only 1 gram. The get a lethal dose in, the packet would have to be over 2.25 parts ricin to each part sweetener, which seems unlikely to succeed. The weight would be off, there'd be a bad taste, etc. 

      It's a minor thing, but a thing.

      The ricin in the vial was believed to be lethal for 3 people,  that would be about 7 grams, almost a quarter ounce, which that small vial could not contain

      In the real world, maybe, but Walt made Super Risin, the expert chemist he was.  If they said it was enough for 3, good enough for me.  Walt's Super Risin wouldn't, of course, be affected by hot water, etc., and did do the deed on Lydia.

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    • ArakinTheWarden wrote:
      I think she would then have to tell them what poisoned her and who poisoned her and why. The police might then find a connection with Walter and the Blue meth and that would land her in prison. 

      She would then have the choice of dying or stay in prison. 

      That's how I see it. 

      she would easily have chosent to go to the hospital, and then bargained telling them she knew how to find "Heisenberg"  and if she told them she would get immunity- only to find out that the police had already found the newly deceased Walter White, thus losing that single bargaining chip she had left. Thats how i could see it easily going had she chosen to go to the hospital (either way, death or prison still, death thanks to no cure for ricin)

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    • I don't see why people are hoping for her survival.  She had a woman threatened and to an extent said woman's children. Simply because said woman threatened her at the carwash. Never mind that "She saw me, she knows too much." BS. She did the stupid thing by trying to have Skyler, the wife of a still at large at the time Drug Kingpin, killed.  As far as I am concerned the Ricin regardless of your chemistry debate, was too good for her.

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    • I don't think anyone posting here hoped for her survival.  This is just a thread about the details of Lydia's poisoning & death.  Theories about what might have happened, had she survived, aren't really hope for her survival.

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    • We assume Lydia will die but we will never be sure.

      Nevertheless, Lydia still could have called some bad guys to kill Walt's family...

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    • It's probably safe to say "deceased" as her fate, but it is likely worth noting with an asterisk or something because it really wasn't confirmed nor as absolutely final as the other deaths in the episode considering their dead bodies were shown.

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    • Apparently none of you 'watched' the show...

      Walter White is dying at the point of his phone chat with Lydia. While it's true that if he hadn't disclosed to her that she was actually poisoned then the time avoiding emergency medical attention or the time wasted by the family doctor sending out for tests etc. could most likely have sealed her fate - blah blah.

      But you are forgetting the circumstances of the phone call, a detail that wouldn't have escaped Walter White's mind in the clarity of the moment ... Lydia's high strung / control freak / need to know nature was her instantaneous downfall the second she made the call to Todd. a MAJOR federal investigation is about to descend upon the 'compound' where the cell phone Walt casually dropped to the ground will have every call traced. It's over, no more hiding, no more destroying 'burners'. If Lydia was also using a burner the feds will simply get the records from the carriers cell towers logs for triangulated location.  

      When Walter White said "Goodbye Lydia" he knew exactly what he was talking about.  Her options are nil: She's too sick to take flight, if she survives the Ricin she will surely go to a maximum security prison, her child will be taken, and with the volume of drugs, number of murders, two recent of which were officers - no panel or judge will ever let her have parole.  Walter also told his wife that the bad men that came to threaten her will all be dead soon and that she is free and clear to start 'bargaining' with the Fed's. I.D.ing Lydia will be high on that list now to protect her children. But none of this really matters because when her criminal connections abroad learn of Lydia's exposure they will see to it at all costs that this scurvy little rat is exterminated pronto. 

      Goodbye Lydia. 

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    • And good riddance too.

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    • I agree with Imsmartyouarenotsure she could have survived the Ricin by calling for medical attention, injested ricin is the least lethal way of getting ricin, but survived for what? Even if Todds phone did not lead the feds to her, there was surely other evidence that would have. It really suprises me that she still met with Todd at the same place she met with Walt. I live just south of Albuquerque and I can promise you that in such a small town as Albuquerque, the staff at that place would have been bragging to high heaven in the media that the evil Heizenburg and "some woman" met at their place regulalry on Tuesdays. 

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    • ArakinTheWarden wrote:
      I think she would then have to tell them what poisoned her and who poisoned her and why. The police might then find a connection with Walter and the Blue meth and that would land her in prison. 

      She would then have the choice of dying or stay in prison. 

      That's how I see it. 

      Sorry, but anything Lydia tells her doctor is privileged and inadmissible in court.

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    • Dogger55 wrote:

      Sorry, but anything Lydia tells her doctor is privileged and inadmissible in court.

      That is not exactly true, if she tells the Dr's who poisoned her they are required to tell LE. Dr's are required to report some things to local LE and the CDC. Gun shot wounds, anthrax or other possible terrorist bio/chem weapon infections. So she would be questioned rather quickly after coming into the Dr with ricin poisoning. Dr privlage is not indefinate, it can be admitied in court in many cases. Look at how fast the cops were on Jesse after he told them to look at ricin with Brock. 

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    • question here is: will this Forum survive?

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    • The demise of Lydia Rodarte-Quayle is a foregone conclusion.

      Several hours passed from the time she mixed in the Ricin with her tea at the coffeeshop with Todd Alquist and Walter White.

      And even if she sought medical treatment after learning she was poisoned with Ricin, it would have been too late for her to do anything about it--because her "goose was cooked".

      Had she sought medical attention and blurted out to the world that she was poisoned with Ricin, Homeland Security and all its sub-agencies would definitely investigate how she got the Ricin in the first place and that would lead to Law Enforcement picking apart her life and exposing her involvement with Walter White, the explosion of American-made MethAmphetamine in the Czech Republic as well as her contacts with Declan, Jack Welker and even Gustavo Fringman and Peter Schuler, the head of the Foods Division over at Madrigal ElektroMotoren GmbH in Hannover.

      Regardless, this was end of Lydia Rodarte-Quayle's reputation as we all know it.

      About the only card she might have had to play after that--presuming she survived the poisoning--was to expose Jesse Pinkman's role in Walter White's operation.

      Prior to that, she had no knowledge of Pinkman's involvement in Gus Fring's operation, because she did not know the name of the chemist or chemists that were in Fring's operation ("Madrigal", S05E02).

      What also seals her fate besides the phone calls to Todd's phone, is the cup that Todd kept with her lipstick on it and for all we know, was right up there on some shelf with the "Spider in the Jar" that Todd collected from Drew Sharp.

      That cup with her DNA on that lipstick will implicate her in Jack Welker's meth operation.

      Either way, Lydia Rodarte-Quayle is done for.

      Her life as she knows it is over, either dying from ingesting Ricin or surviving that attack with medical assistance that will bring in the scrutiny of Law Enforcement not only into how she was poisoned, but through the investigation into her life and her dealings that will ultimately bring down her reputation and even destroy Madrigal Electric Motors and their parent company in the process.

      One of the other problems she had also came from the episode "Madrigal" when we are all introduced to her at the meeting with the DOJ and the DEA at the Albuquerque DEA Field Office under ASAC George Merkert--Herr Herzog, the head of Madrigal ElektroMotoren, hoped that Peter Schuler was a "lone anomaly" in the company, but if there were others involved, like Lydia Rodarte-Quayle, he hoped that the DEA would expose them and pledged the company's support in the DEA's investigation.

      And when the DEA showed up at her office in Houston ("Fifty-One", S05E04), Lydia was wondering if they were there to arrest her, even though it turns out they were there to arrest Ron Forenall, whom Lydia identifies to Hank Schrader and Steven Gomez and their detail in the warehouse.

      With Forenall's arrest, Lydia Rodarte-Quayle bought herself some time to take the heat off her, which led to her resuming her old ways again in "Dead Freight" (S05E05), where she is using Methylamine and her access to it to further her own purposes.

      Without her connections inside Madrigal, there would have been no "great train robbery" and no disappearance (or death) of Drew Sharp in McKinley County, New Mexico.

      As we all know, Lydia Rodarte-Quayle is the "lynch-pin" where she helps Gus Fring set up his lab at Lavandaria Brillianté, and gets Mike Ehrmantraut, Walter White, Jesse Pinkman and later on Declan and even Jack Welker set up to produce Meth for both the home and European markets.

      She is that missing person on Hank Schrader's board for the Fring case.

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    • OK, that is all very well reasoned, but she was certainly a woman with substantial resources at this point. A bribed doctor, and a down-low flight to another country (daughter in tow) seem possible, especially if done immediately before DEA put the pieces together.

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    • Graxspoo wrote:
      OK, that is all very well reasoned, but she was certainly a woman with substantial resources at this point. A bribed doctor, and a down-low flight to another country (daughter in tow) seem possible, especially if done immediately before DEA put the pieces together.


      But that would all hinge on how much time Lydia had left.

      By the time she attempted to call Todd, it was way past sunset and probably towards midnight--it gets darker sooner in those lower latitudes than it does in the lands above the 37th Parallel.

      Her meeting with Walter and Todd earlier in the day was like clockwork, as Walter pointed out to both Todd and Lydia in the coffee shop in the final episode ("Felina", S08E16).

      There was a chance that she may have been too far gone for anybody to save her by the time she called Todd and Walter answered the phone.

      Not even the flu acts that fast--it would have needed several days to incubate and rise to the level where the symptoms would occur.

      Food Poisoning might, though.

      She would have needed the resources of a Dr. Barry Goodman like Fring called upon after he drank the poison with the rest of the cartel, but that had a lot of advanced planning and coordination on both Fring's and Dr. Goodman's parts.

      By the time Walter tells Lydia that she was poisoned with Ricin, a good deal of time already passed and that would have made treating her more difficult, especially if she was unable to get transport out to where this doctor was to avoid the scrutiny of Law Enforcement.

      She probably would have been "too hot to handle" as a patient by the time she learned from Walter that she was poisoned with Ricin.

      Her death from Ricin poisoning was more likely than not at this point in time.

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    • Whether or not she would have died from that amount of poison in real life is unimportant. It's clear that storywise, it was depicted as Lydia's doom/demise.

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    • How did Walt put the ricin inside the Stevia packet? That shit is sealed! And she wouldn't have put an already opened pack into her tea, that's too dirty for her. I am genuinly curious.

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    • Black, I'm sure it can be done. On Nurse Jackie, throughout the show she has frequently emptied packets of sweeteners and filled them with crushed-up pills (like oxy) so as to mask her addiction--she uses these packets in her coffee in front of everyone. You can steam packets open, or aim a hair dryer at the edge to loosen the adhesive in order to open a packet without tearing it. Replace it with your substance of choice, reseal it (there's this thing called glue) and Bob's your uncle.

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    • altering a stevia packet? childs play for Heisenberg

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    • I'm just glad Lydia "Roadkill-Quail" is dead.  But I have wondered, why did Walt use Ricin when he could have used something more toxic, like Abrin?  Maybe because ricin is well known to most viewers?  But then again, Walt was a guy who was supposedly able to synthesize 99.1% d-methamphetamine (yeah, riiight...), yet isn't smart enough to roll a barrel of methylamine away from a chemical warehouse (Ep. "A No-Rough-Stuff-Type Deal").

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    • Dethscul wrote:
      I'm just glad Lydia "Roadkill-Quail" is dead.  But I have wondered, why did Walt use Ricin when he could have used something more toxic, like Abrin?  Maybe because ricin is well known to most viewers?  But then again, Walt was a guy who was supposedly able to synthesize 99.1% d-methamphetamine (yeah, riiight...), yet isn't smart enough to roll a barrel of methylamine away from a chemical warehouse (Ep. "A No-Rough-Stuff-Type Deal").

      Well 2 reasons, one pratical, he had the Ricin alread, the other creative, ricin has been in the show for most of the series, first with Tuco, then Gus, then with Brock (even though it was not ricin Jesse thought it was), then getting the ricin back from Saul, Jesse finding out Walt had Huel pick-pocket the ricin, causing Jesse to break the golden rule of never narc. With all that build up someone had to die with it after it had been in most of the show. Lydia was just the best person to get it, we know her as a mother and she never did anything violent, so her death did not need to be violent in the end. Everyone else killed in Felina needed to die violently. It would have been so boring to see Jack or his men poisoned, or Todd. They all need to go out graphicly.   

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    • Well I think what also needs to be discussed here is the Collateral Damage that Walt has inadvertently inflicted on innocent civilians, i.e. people who work for the restaurant such as waiter or waitress who refills Lydia's cup, the busboy who handles the contaminated cup which may contain a small amount of the tainted tea and the dishwashers who pour out any liquids from the cup into the sink thus contaminating other dishes and cups and exposing them to the Ricin will they become sick and die due to exposure or not because of the small amount that maybe remaining in the cup.

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    • Cr8meone wrote:
      Everyone else killed in Felina needed to die violently. It would have been so boring to see Jack or his men poisoned, or Todd. They all need to go out graphicly.   


      No arguement there, Walt killing Jack's gang with a M60 rigged to fire from the trunk of his car?  Best. Ending. Ever.

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    • 535504 wrote:
      Well I think what also needs to be discussed here is the Collateral Damage that Walt has inadvertently inflicted on innocent civilians, i.e. people who work for the restaurant such as waiter or waitress who refills Lydia's cup, the busboy who handles the contaminated cup which may contain a small amount of the tainted tea and the dishwashers who pour out any liquids from the cup into the sink thus contaminating other dishes and cups and exposing them to the Ricin will they become sick and die due to exposure or not because of the small amount that maybe remaining in the cup.

      I really doubt that is the case, there would be a TINY amount left in the cup, and I really doubt that the Grove Cafe (the cafe where they meet) would have employees so ghetto to drink from a used tea cup. They would have to directly injest the ricin either by drinking it, or by gettting the tiny remaining bit in the Stevia packet airborne then inhaling it (highly unlikely). That is like saying that walt needed to worry about the collateral Damage from his m60 contraption because a 7.62x51 round has a lethal well over 1000 yards. Jacks Compound was in a pretty populated neighborhood, (I know they never say that but they were pretty accurate when filming, Saul tells Jesse that the pick up for the extractor is at Juan Tabo and Osuna, and that is where that place really is) so should Walt have worried about a round going through the wall and hitting an inocent? To be honest I don't really think he cared much about Collateral Damage by that point. 

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    • Presque Vu13 wrote:
      Okay, she was sick from the Ricin, but did Walt make a fatal error in telling her what the poison was and that he'd slipped it to her?  She could call an ambulance and recover in hospital!!  I actually expected (and wanted) to see her drop dead.

      NOT A CHANCE.... the dose that Walt gave her would have killed Lydia in 48 hours.

      In college we tested the toxicity of a Ricin sample, a sample about an eighth the size of what Walt gave Lydia. It was found to be 2.5% more toxic than what the human liver can withstand.

      In laments terms: that small sample size of Ricin I tested in college would have killed 2 grown men. Walt gave Lydia a does 8 times that size.


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    • Cjohnson51407 wrote:
      In laments terms: that small sample size of Ricin I tested in college would have killed 2 grown men. Walt gave Lydia a does 8 times that size.

      The only flaw I still see in that scene is that Lydia pours that ricin into hot water (for her tea), so it should have denaturated before she ingested it.

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    • Just for the sake of argument, we really do not know the dose of Ricin Walt gave to Lydia. It is highly doubltful he gave her that whole vial, more likely he gave her just enough to kill an adult. The reason for this is Walt would not want to leave anything to chance. Most sweeteners are White in color and adding that entire vial of Ricin would have A) added a considerable amount to the packet of sweetener making the packet seem overfull, and B) discoulored the sweetener so much that Lydia could have noticed "Um sir I need a new cup of tea and some new pakets of sweetener, the last one was off colored." Also the lethal dose of Ricin can vary widely when injested. It can take the equivelent of 3-20+ beans to acheive a lethal dose depending on if its a child, and adult, health, weight, and other factors. 

      In your college experiment did you test the Toxisity of Ricin for injested, injected, or inhaled? This can make a HUGE difference, as it only took a very very very small dose to be injected to kill Georgi Markov.

      The thing about it be Denatured by the hot water, the CDC states that the heat nessesary to kill Ricin is 80c or 176f. That is well and above the temprature ANY resturaunt would serve a drink at (we all remember the lady with 3rd degree burns in her crotch from good old Albuquerque right?) When sued Mc'Donalds Coffe tested out at 140f. So the Ricin being dead is a non factor.

      The Main question is COULD Lydia have survived if she got medical attention? Sure she could have (probably not though) it had only been a matter of up to 12 hours, she knew what the poison was and how she got it, medical would have started treatment right away. But heck even the White Supreamasists and Jack COULD have survived. I had a student 3 years ago who his dad tried to execute him after killing his mother. He shot his son in the head with a 30-06 at 50 feet. His son lived and was very similar to someone who had a stroke. (his dad was high on meth ironicly, we get some wack jobs like that her in NM, there was also the dad who thought his kid was Satan, hacked his sons head off and threw it at police in a high speed chase in 1995) So it is possible that even JACK lived but highly unlikely.  

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    • Danares wrote:
      Presque Vu13 wrote:
      Okay, she was sick from the Ricin, but did Walt make a fatal error in telling her what the poison was and that he'd slipped it to her?  She could call an ambulance and recover in hospital!!  It may sound sadistic, but I expected (and wanted) to see her drop dead.
      Nope, there is no known antidote against that kind of Ricin poisoning. The only substances (still under research) that would help need to be taken in advance. And even then your best chance is only 50%...

      Are you sure about that? What's your source? I've looked it up in the past. I won't do it now (for reasons mostly to do with laziness and the fact I didn't find it fascinating the first time,)  But, I remember reading--YES. It can be lethal if untreated. But, also it depends greatly on dosage and the way it's taken. I think ingesting it is maybe the worst, but even then it depends on dosage. Vince said the amount in the vile could kill 3 adults. I remember reading that there are things that can be done under certain circumstances. One BIG one would be that you know you need medical attention as early as possible and you know you've been poisoned by ricin, specifically. Lydia qualifies for both.  We know it hasn't been more than about 12 hours (most likely) since she first took it. Once in the ER, they supposedly can use charcoal, I think, and do a couple of other life saving techniques which supposedly work. Obviously my ignorance is preventing me from speaking with conviction, but where's your source on this?

      You could also make the argument that Lydia MAY not seek treatment for a few reasons. She sees Walt as someone who will get the job done. Or maybe she thinks walt left info for the cops about her and as soon as they treat her she'll be arrested?...yeah, that sounds pretty stupid, but not improbable. Lets just say for the purposes of the show that in the BB universe, Walt knows everything about science and if he says she can't be saved...Lydia's a dead woman. And that's the answer anyway. She's dead.

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      • Riing!* *Riing*!  - "Lydia, oh Lydia, Walt poisoned your Stevia!" - Credit to someone on Flickr...
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    • Imsmartyouarenot wrote:

      "no more destroying 'burners'. If Lydia was also using a burner the feds will simply get the records from the carriers cell towers logs for triangulated location. "

      Cellular triangulation  does not work that well.  At best, in a dense urban area with a cell phone negotiating with three cell sites at the same time (very rare) then the area where the call came from can be narrowed down to about 3/4 of a square mile.  There could be thousands addresses in that area.  Just a clarification, not disputing you other opinions.


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    • I think she most likely would survive because ingest ricin isn't that lethal, the whipiedia entry says that most patients survive if treated (we know this from the serie, when brock was poisoned and Jesse says it was ricin the doctors treat him for it, and when he get's better they believe it is because it was ricin, and they given the right treatment, only after they discover it wasn't the case). Walter also said the ricin itself takes about a week to kill someone and he tells Lydia he poisoned her with ricin the same day he did it. ... she has enough time to look for a private doctor ( for example Frinn's doctor )  and if she want's payback she could hire some hitmans and send them after Walts family (even if for some reason she couldn't survive she could still do this), especially with all the money she made with Walt

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    • Agustin.vitti wrote:
      I think she most likely would survive because ingest ricin isn't that lethal, the whipiedia entry says that most patients survive if treated (we know this from the serie, when brock was poisoned and Jesse says it was ricin the doctors treat him for it, and when he get's better they believe it is because it was ricin, and they given the right treatment, only after they discover it wasn't the case). Walter also said the ricin itself takes about a week to kill someone and he tells Lydia he poisoned her with ricin the same day he did it. ... she has enough time to look for a private doctor ( for example Frinn's doctor )  and if she want's payback she could hire some hitmans and send them after Walts family (even if for some reason she couldn't survive she could still do this), especially with all the money she made with Walt

      I think you're mostly right, except it's quicker than a week. Also it depends on dosage and how it's ingested. She took enough to kill 3 adult males, so yes there's a chance, but not likely. And for the purposes of the show--she dies. That's what the writers wanted us to believe and they ended it there.

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    • Lydia could be alive because putting the Ricin in the TEA inactivated it.  On the CDC website is states.

      Ricin a stable substance under normal conditions, but can be inactivated by heat above 80 degrees centigrade (176 degrees Fahrenheit).

      http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/ricin/facts.asp

      http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/ricin.pdf

      Here are the Water Temps for Teas.  All of them over 176 degrees.  So the ricin could be severely degraded.  Lydia lives.   The Lydias of the world always survive.

      • Black Tea - The darkest color tea, and the most commonly know (in my experience). Steep time of 4-5 minutes with boiling water (212º F), sometimes milk and sugar are added. Black tea is not suitable to multiple infusions (steeping the tea leaves a second time or more).
      • Green Tea - Green-ish yellow in color, more green or yellow depending on type. Steep time is 3 minutes (maximum!) with rumbling water (176 °F to 185 °F). Some people listen for the moment when the water is "rumbling" or just about to boil, and some people let the water boil and then cool for minute before pouring over tea leaves. Sugar can be added to green tea, but milk is typically not. Some green teas are suitable for multiple infusions. (Don't apply these rules to matcha powdered tea!)
      • Oolong Tea - This tea is a yellow or something orange color, depending on region/type. Steep for anywhere from 3-7 minutes with water 194 °F to 212 °F (just start to boil up to full rolling boil). There is a lot of variation on steep time for oolongs, so do what tastes best for you for each oolong. Oolongs are suitable for multiple infusions, depending on quality and strength of the tea.
      • White Tea - White tea is very light, in color and flavor, very commonly infused multiple times (with good quality white tea). Steep in boiling water for up to 7 minutes (recommend starting at 7 minutes, as the flavor can be very light).

      Lydia LIVES !!!! 

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    • Fredjones2005 wrote:

      Lydia could be alive because putting the Ricin in the TEA inactivated it.  On the CDC website is states.

      Ricin a stable substance under normal conditions, but can be inactivated by heat above 80 degrees centigrade (176 degrees Fahrenheit).

      http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/ricin/facts.asp

      http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/ricin.pdf

      Here are the Water Temps for Teas.  All of them over 176 degrees.  So the ricin could be severely degraded.  Lydia lives.   The Lydias of the world always survive.


      • Black Tea - The darkest color tea, and the most commonly know (in my experience). Steep time of 4-5 minutes with boiling water (212º F), sometimes milk and sugar are added. Black tea is not suitable to multiple infusions (steeping the tea leaves a second time or more).
      • Green Tea - Green-ish yellow in color, more green or yellow depending on type. Steep time is 3 minutes (maximum!) with rumbling water (176 °F to 185 °F). Some people listen for the moment when the water is "rumbling" or just about to boil, and some people let the water boil and then cool for minute before pouring over tea leaves. Sugar can be added to green tea, but milk is typically not. Some green teas are suitable for multiple infusions. (Don't apply these rules to matcha powdered tea!)
      • Oolong Tea - This tea is a yellow or something orange color, depending on region/type. Steep for anywhere from 3-7 minutes with water 194 °F to 212 °F (just start to boil up to full rolling boil). There is a lot of variation on steep time for oolongs, so do what tastes best for you for each oolong. Oolongs are suitable for multiple infusions, depending on quality and strength of the tea.
      • White Tea - White tea is very light, in color and flavor, very commonly infused multiple times (with good quality white tea). Steep in boiling water for up to 7 minutes (recommend starting at 7 minutes, as the flavor can be very light).

      Lydia LIVES !!!! 

      While everything you say about the brewing of tea is true, you forget the now famous Mcdonalds case where the lady who was burned with 3rd degree burns in her crotch right here in Albuquerque who won 2.5 million dolllars because the coffe was too hot. No resturaunt would ever dare serve a hot drink near that hot since the law suit, many are brewed at 180, but most are served at a much lower temprature, (around 140-150) the other thing to consider is the cooling rate of water which is signifigant, by the time lydia had put the Ricin in her tea the temprature would surely have dropped well below the 176 point, if it had ever reached there in the first place (most resturaunts since the lawsuit have began serving their hot drinks at no more than 160.) 

      And the other thing is, Giligan said she is dead, so even if the water was "too hot" for Ricin, the writers killed her off that way, so she is dead as Kenedy and Lincoln.

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    • I agree with Cr8meone, plus water boils at a lower temperature in the high altitude of Albuquerque. 

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    • I havent researched it, but I dont think poisoning can go half-way (as in get a lil sick without being poisoned to the full effect of the substance). She was either poisoned or not. She got sick from it, therefore, she had poison in her system, therefore, shes dead. 

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    • Good info tho on tea temps. Now I know why my tea or coffee gets cold before I start sipping on it :) @fredjones

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    • Lisa23 wrote:
      Good info tho on tea temps. Now I know why my tea or coffee gets cold before I start sipping on it :) @fredjones

      ANd need to bake and boil longer in ABQ too because of altitude/temp  thing.

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    • The whole thing is Walt's fault - if Walt had allied with Lydia and mentored Todd and stayed on top with personal bodygurads the whole destrcutive scenario could have been avoided. We have the case here of friends and allies murdering and destroying each other. 

      For nothinng - for dysfunctional neurois.

      A guide how not to be successful in anything in the world.

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:
      The whole thing is Walt's fault - if Walt had allied with Lydia and mentored Todd and stayed on top with personal bodygurads the whole destrcutive scenario could have been avoided. We have the case here of friends and allies murdering and destroying each other. 

      For nothinng - for dysfunctional neurois.

      A guide how not to be successful in anything in the world.

      So what you are saying is to be sucsessful in life you need to be allies with psycho's who are willing to gun down kids on their own wims (Don't think for a min that Todd killed that kid only to protect them, he wanted to kill that kid, hence the trophy spider he kept) and steal from their work? THat sets a high standard.

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    •  
      So what you are saying is to be sucsessful in life you need to be allies with psycho's who are willing to gun down kids on their own wims (Don't think for a min that Todd killed that kid only to protect them, he wanted to kill that kid, hence the trophy spider he kept) and steal from their work? THat sets a high standard.


      Business is business - no need for name calling. You have no proof of your accusation. Todd did what was necessary.


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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:
       
      So what you are saying is to be sucsessful in life you need to be allies with psycho's who are willing to gun down kids on their own wims (Don't think for a min that Todd killed that kid only to protect them, he wanted to kill that kid, hence the trophy spider he kept) and steal from their work? THat sets a high standard.

      Business is business - no need for name calling. You have no proof of your accusation. Todd did what was necessary.


      No proof of the accusation? He killed the kid, what more proof is there needed? He pulled out a gun and killed a kid who was what going to run home and tell someone what exactly? He saw some people by the rail road with a pump pumping on a stopped train? And this was going to go to the authorities and achieve what? they were never going to know that anything was missing from that train in the first place or not until much MUCH later. Todd is a psycho killer who gunned down an innocent kid I was cheering when I heard his neck snap in that final scene with him, he deserved to be the one in the pit or worse in prison where he could be a$$ raped daily.

      As for Lydia there is plenty of proof that she was arranging for the theft of property from her work!

      You need to go back and re-watch the show because there was plenty of proof for every accusation against psychopath Todd and Snooty B!tch Lydia they both deserved to die, and I was happy Gilligan delivered.

        Loading editor
    • No proof of the accusation?


      ---

      Ther  is no proof of our accusation taht  Todd killed the kid on a "whim" No one there is "psychotic" everyone is just takig care of business.

      Todd was a good disciple of Walt's - much better than the junkie Jessie.

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:
      No proof of the accusation?

      ---

      Ther  is no proof of our accusation taht  Todd killed the kid on a "whim" No one there is "psychotic" everyone is just takig care of business.

      Todd was a good disciple of Walt's - much better than the junkie Jessie.

      Um yea he did just kill that kid on a whim, no one said "kill him" Todd made up his own mind and acted. Even Walt was ashamed of what Todd did. He did not retaliate though because he knew if he did his new way of hiding the lab would have fallen all apart.

      Todd fits perfectly the definition of a Psychopath, he has no empathy since he does not at all feel for the kid he killed or the woman, no remorse he said he was sorry for killing the kid, but then he also kept a trophy of the killing,  no behavior control he acted with out being told to, and since he hangs out with a bunch of neo-nazi loosers he obviously has anti-social behavior. Textbook psychopath.

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    • "Um yea he did just kill that kid on a whim,"


      nope no evidnece none whatsoever. Sure he is bit of a psychopath -so what!  the fact that he is made him act decisively - and  he is a likeable psychopath

      If it wasn't for the Todd's of this world you all would be eating borcht or rice  or saurkruat a long time ago. All this namsy pamsy loser attitude is suicide in the real world.

      The neo nazis are not losers- they are a strong force - we all can take lessons from them - not in nazihood but in survival tactics - they are anti-heroes..

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:
      nope no evidnece none whatsoever. Sure he is bit of a psychopath -so what!  the fact that he is made him act decisively - and  he is a likeable psychopath

      Sure if you like people who gun down kids just because, that is a great example isn't it. A real hero, A real winner, a great example of what not to be. Iwas happy to hear his neck snap like a chickens, I litteraly cheered and yelled at the tv. I am glad as Americans we are not like him, that people like him end up dead or in prision being someones wife.

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    • Kira babe wrote:

      Sure if you like people who gun down kids just because, that is a great example isn't it. A real hero, A real winner, a great example of what not to be. Iwas happy to hear his neck snap like a chickens, I litteraly cheered and yelled at the tv. I am glad as Americans we are not like him, that people like him end up dead or in prision being someones wife.

      All of America's power elite are much more ruthless than  Todd - they are all mass murderers.  They are neither dead nor in prison - they live like emperors.

      They have murdered millions upon millions of their American serfs and slaves  and not sparing any children  by denying them health services and an equal share of the wealth and denying even the basic necessities let alone diis-inheriting them from the accumlated qulaity historical culture of the world. And this is not counting what they have done to the rest of the world not through war but through their business corporations though they are backed by military might..

      And the American Sheeple let Assad kill 100 kids a day in Syria and they don't give a darn. A nation of of hypocrites. 

      So do the "offended" here really care about  'children' ? Or is it just they feel they need a scapegoat to villainize in fiction as in life and doesn't the propganda machine line up their  scapegoats for them - and they never thinking to look behind the screen at those who are the real causes of your pain.

      Herein the tale the citizens of Oceania are given their two minute hate.

      ..

      They were lucky to have Todd at the the Hijack -sometimes you need a psychopath to do what is necessary. An ordiinary personn would not have acted so quickly and decisively. So it worked out for the bet from a business  point of view. You have to look at things from a  management point of view.

      I would have rather seen Todd snap Jesie's neck. Jessie threw awy the lives of his friendss and his own freedom just like he threw away his own money - I dislike self destructive people. I  find them horrifying.



      I'm more and  more looking at breaking bad as a fascist morality tale for a culture that values fascism. . Walt, the anti-hero who opposes state fascism is unduly and irrationally demonized and hated by all the other characters including his own family.

      The hatred is not deserved nor is it natural - it is written this way to support the values of fascism. Walt's values of friendship, loyalty, family, individual indiative, development of excellence, personal merit, entrepreneurship, sacrifice are overcome and defeated  by the values of  conformity, adherenece to the State system and  of blind obedience to the State. The authors have Walt suitably punished by having him suitabley lose everything at every point before he can enjoy anything  and have him lose everything in the end and including being unjuslty (and unrealisticly)  demonized by his own family and and lying face down dead in his own blood.

      The obvious moral -

      Do not oppose the State - the wages of independence are death. Do not have loyalty to anything but the system - those who have loyalty to family  or friends over the State, who have independent thought or initiative, who try to beat the system ... will be crushed and if even if these "abberant hooligans" are sucessful - they will never enjoy the profits fo their sins.

      Absolutely a fascist morality fable. 

      Ironically Americans can't identify themsleves as fascists since they fought 'fascists" in WW II but in fact when they fought them, they admired them and incorporated their values, methods and propaganda system   - so they incorporated fascism into their own cultue in every way  but they can never use the name. Thee authors demonized the gang bangers as Neo-nazis but the irony is they were more democratic than the society they lived in in fiction as in reality.

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:

      All of America's power elite are much more ruthless than  Todd - they are all mass murderers.  They are neither dead nor in prison - they live like emperors.

      They have murdered millions upon millions of their American serfs and slaves  and not sparing any children  by denying them health services and an equal share of the wealth and denying even the basic necessities let alone diis-inheriting them from the accumlated qulaity historical culture of the world. And this is not counting what they have done to the rest of the world not through war but through their business corporations though they are backed by military might..

      And the American Sheeple let Assad kill 100 kids a day in Syria and they don't give a darn. A nation of of hypocrites. 

      So do the "offended" here really care about  'children' ? Or is it just they feel they need a scapegoat to villainize in fiction as in life and doesn't the propganda machine line up their  scapegoats for them - and they never thinking to look behind the screen at those who are the real causes of your pain.

      Herein the tale the citizens of Oceania are given their two minute hate.

      ..

      They were lucky to have Todd at the the Hijack -sometimes you need a psychopath to do what is necessary. An ordiinary personn would not have acted so quickly and decisively. So it worked out for the bet from a business  point of view. You have to look at things from a  management point of view.

      I would have rather seen Todd snap Jesie's neck. Jessie threw awy the lives of his friendss and his own freedom just like he threw away his own money - I dislike self destructive people. I  find them horrifying.



      I'm more and  more looking at breaking bad as a fascist morality tale for a culture that values fascism. . Walt, the anti-hero who opposes state fascism is unduly and irrationally demonized and hated by all the other characters including his own family.

      The hatred is not deserved nor is it natural - it is written this way to support the values of fascism. Walt's values of friendship, loyalty, family, individual indiative, development of excellence, personal merit, entrepreneurship, sacrifice are overcome and defeated  by the values of  conformity, adherenece to the State system and  of blind obedience to the State. The authors have Walt suitably punished by having him suitabley lose everything at every point before he can enjoy anything  and have him lose everything in the end and including being unjuslty (and unrealisticly)  demonized by his own family and and lying face down dead in his own blood.

      The obvious moral -

      Do not oppose the State - the wages of independence are death. Do not have loyalty to anything but the system - those who have loyalty to family  or friends over the State, who have independent thought or initiative, who try to beat the system ... will be crushed and if even if these "abberant hooligans" are sucessful - they will never enjoy the profits fo their sins.

      Absolutely a fascist morality fable. 

      Ironically Americans can't identify themsleves as fascists since they fought 'fascists" in WW II but in fact when they fought them, they admired them and incorporated their values, methods and propaganda system   - so they incorporated fascism into their own cultue in every way  but they can never use the name. Thee authors demonized the gang bangers as Neo-nazis but the irony is they were more democratic than the society they lived in in fiction as in reality.

      God bless America.

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    • Kira babe wrote:
      God bless America.

      God only blesses the American power elite.


      The question is which America do you bless? There are two Americas - the people of America versus the small percentage that own the wealth and enslave Americans..

      If yuo bless the later you damn the former.

      In any case, that's what Hitler said about Germany:  'God bless Germany". Everyone claims God is on their side.

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:

      I would have rather seen Todd snap Jesie's neck. Jessie threw awy the lives of his friendss and his own freedom just like he threw away his own money - I dislike self destructive people. I  find them horrifying.

      I have done the same thing, gotten cops on students friends and family alike, Students for having illegal drinking parties. Friends for serving their children alcohol, family for selling illegal drugs, no shame not one bit, and I took the reward money happily. I have also as I have said elsewhere tossed up to $8000 to random people because the money comes from an uncle who attempted to molest me, and because I could not turn him in (because when I was younger I had no idea to talk to the police about my stepdads brother) tries to buy his forgiveness by upping the annual gift he gives me every year, so should I not cash the check? No way I take it and just hand it out to total strangers, or toss it out of hotel windows, or drop $100 bills in convenient places, no guilt, don't care.

      And you need to read up on Fascism my friend, True Fascist want loyalty to the state and the military power above family friends or well being, they have absolutely nothing in common with what you say about America, you describe a sick twisted version of Soviet/England, where everyone is entitled to everything, I am sorry if you want health care you need to work for it and buy it, if you want to get ahead in life then get a job, or get out of my way because I will step on you to get mine for my family.  

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    • Cr8meone wrote:
      I am sorry if you want health care you need to work for it and buy it, if you want to get ahead in life then get a job, or get out of my way because I will step on you to get mine for my family.

      These are fascist values. The triumph of the will. The victory of the strong. The elimination of the weak.


      BTW In Canada and in Britain and in many other countries  -everybody gets health care - no-one 'pays for it - everyone pays for it - it is paid from public taxes. And it is all much cheaper than in America.

      How does that happen? - because there are no "insurance compies " which rake expoitive profits  adn actully make theri profits by denying helgth serives , letting peopel get sick and ..here is the big moneymaker ..by killing them.


      America does not have a 'health care system" , it has a "health denial system" and a health exploitation system. . Obama care will not help you becaue you still have the insurance companies. they haven't been dissolved, the executives have not been put on tirial and jailed  , their profits have not been returned to the American people.  The helath Insurance Companies of America are part ot the system of fascist control and repression - so long as you have those companies you will never escape the jackboot of your oppressive masters.

      ---

      And in this system there is only a place for the palace guard - the small group that helps support their masters the elite. The rest are relegated to roles as slaves serfs or the dead. The propagands  is everyone can get ahead - the reality is the elite will become meore powerful and when even  the few who have gotten a  a little extra  are no longer needed or useful they will be disposed of no matter how hard they have worked.


      America is not what the propagnda Media (the mass lying machine) owned by the elite says it is. You are referring to the illusion of America, not the reality.

      Just look at the wealth statistics on Wikipedia. A small group that conrols all the wealth and power is the definitoin of Fascism. America is has achieved the exact same system as Soviet Stalinism. 


      "I have done the same thing, gotten cops on students friends and family alike"


      Thats' what Nazi youth and Soviet youth were indoctrinated to do. (Both were fascist systems)

      Did you also turn in your parents to the authorites? For what crime? Bad thoughts? Sedition?

      Yes, there is no doubt these are the epitome of fascist values.

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:

      "I have done the same thing, gotten cops on students friends and family alike"


      Thats' what Nazi youth and Soviet youth were indoctrinated to do. (Both were fascist systems)

      Did you also turn in your parents to the authorites? For what crime? Bad thoughts? Sedition?

      Yes, there is no doubt these are the epitome of fascist values.

      Yep I sure did turn in both my mom and stepdad they were embezeling money and property from their work, selling Heroin, and were sexualy assaulting my sister, they have both been in prison for the last 20+ years may they rot, had I not been 8 I would have turned in my uncle also. 

      AND FYI Soviet Union was a Communist state. 

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:

      These are fascist values. The triumph of the will. The victory of the strong. The elimination of the weak.


      And in this system there is only a place for the palace guard - the small group that helps support their masters the elite. The rest are relegated to roles as slaves serfs or the dead. The propagands  is everyone can get ahead - the reality is the elite will become meore powerful and when even  the few who have gotten a  a little extra  are no longer needed or useful they will be disposed of no matter how hard they have worked.


      America is not what the propagnda Media (the mass lying machine) owned by the elite says it is. You are referring to the illusion of America, not the reality.

      Just look at the wealth statistics on Wikipedia. A small group that conrols all the wealth and power is the definitoin of Fascism. America is has achieved the exact same system as Soviet Stalinism. 


      "I have done the same thing, gotten cops on students friends and family alike"


      Thats' what Nazi youth and Soviet youth were indoctrinated to do. (Both were fascist systems)

      Did you also turn in your parents to the authorites? For what crime? Bad thoughts? Sedition?

      Yes, there is no doubt these are the epitome of fascist values.

      So what would you suggest oh great and mighty internet political science guru? Do tell us what someone living in this nation is to do about all the "evils" you seem to see.

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    • Cr8meone wrote:
       
      Yep I sure did turn in both my mom and stepdad

      Of course you did! 


      AND FYI Soviet Union was a Communist state. 


      Yes it was and it was a facist system same as the Nazis and modern America . All totalitarian systems are fascist. 


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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:

      Yep I sure did turn in both my mom and stepdad

      Of course you did! 

      What would you have done? letf you sister to be tortured? I could have cared less about the other stuff, they would have gotten caught anyway, but I could not leave my sister to that for one more day, I smiled and waived in the court house as they were hauled away. 

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    • Cr8meone wrote:

      Tom Brunner III wrote:

      Yep I sure did turn in both my mom and stepdad

      Of course you did! 

      What would you have done? letf you sister to be tortured? I could have cared less about the other stuff, they would have gotten caught anyway, but I could not leave my sister to that for one more day, I smiled and waived in the court house as they were hauled away. 


      Quite a novel you are writing.. Arguemts to personal experience are irrelvant and unprovable on the internet.

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    • Kira babe wrote:
       
      So what would you suggest oh great and mighty internet political science guru? Do tell us what someone living in this nation is to do about all the "evils" you seem to see.

      The answer to facism and totalitarianism is democracy and capitalism.

      Neither of these things exist in Ameria - the political parties and the wealth are owned by the elite - a very small group of people.   You do not chose your leaders - you chose from the ones which are chosen for you by the elite - in essense real Americans have no political party to represent them. therefore you need to create such a party

      .The population has no capital so there is no capitalism.

      It all starts with a single step you must reject fascsim in all it's forms instead of defending it. To do this you must start to separate your concepts. You have been indoctrinated to believe all is one and one is all. This is done by false emotional association. My farm is the flag is the coutnry is all people is all wonderful and it is all not true. 

      The ecomoy of the rich is tremendously ascendant  - the ecomomy of the people is awful and getting worse

      So if you hear soemone say how rotten or wonderful is the "economy" -  start to differentiate  - which economy are they talking about -  the economy of the power brokers or the ecomomy of the exploited rank and file?

      etc etc.


      Up to you  - do you want to take the easy way out - believe the lies - have your ego stroked - feel good about a delusion at the expense of your fellow human beings -  sell out for a few dollars more - support the fascists- watch humanity slide into absolute slavery and oblivion?

      Everybody makes their choice- many in America choose fascsim over freedom - the fascists are in power - it's the easy way out -

      Every single person makes this fundamental choice in life - good versus evil freedom versus fascism and its not just a few that chose fascism - just look at recent world history.


      So if God Blesses America - will God Bless you in the afterlife?


      So let us ask the question who would God bless in Breaking Bad? Not if they are criminals or commit a criminal act according to our conventional standards but did they choose the side of libery in their personal struggles in their world view of reality?

      --

      If everything is so hunky dory adn everyone God Blesses America, why does America have so many criminals? Is that what the human race is inherently like?

      Did not in fact the culture of economic fascism create a deprived and aggressive class of people.- specifically here - the dealers.the cartels and the users/addcits? 

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    • "So let us ask the question who would God bless in Breaking Bad? Not if they are criminals or commit a criminal act according to our conventional standards but did they choose the side of libery in their personal struggles in their world view of reality?"


      People God would  Bless


      Walt - a paragon

      Gus -  because his moral code was developed by experience and interpersonal loyalty adna struggle for personal freedom though he was on the wrong side of the law.

      The cousins - (ditto) their actions were personal from a code of honour they believed in - not business or greed. Within their world view raised as child soldiers indoctrinated to be ruthless  - what they did  they thought was 'good". When they died it was not for greed  but for a Personal Moral Code.  In their world view they were heros though we see them as deranged.


      Walt Jr. - an innocent

      People God would not bless - their souls are damned

      Marie- You need to ask?

      Skylar (Ditto).

      Jessie willfully became Smeagol

      Jane (ditto)

      The Cartel Dons - greed and cruelty - no struggle for personal freedom.

      Not Sure purgatory

      Hank - I can't decide. On the one had a professional lawman is  respctable and honorable - on the other ...not sure... something seems wrong does he really have a "code" or is he just "programmed" .

      Todd  On   the one hand does bad things - on the other hand that is the world he is in and in that world he makes choices based on  . for lack of a better word - a "code".

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    • God would bless none of them,

      Everyone would to Hell, they all broke atleast one of the God's rules in the bible.

      Or in the case of Walt Jr, or Holly they never gave thier lives to God.  

      In the biblical view, unless they asked for forgiveness before they died and gave thier life to God, they are all damed, even if they never did anything wrong, and since religion is absent from the families in this show, no one is shown to have had any religion, or (like the twins) dies in the commison of a crime, hence negating any forgiveness they may have earned by giving their lives to God. 

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    • Cr8meone wrote:
      God would bless none of them,

      Everyone would to Hell, they all broke atleast one of the God's rules in the bible.

      Or in the case of Walt Jr, or Holly they never gave thier lives to God.  

      In the biblical view, unless they asked for forgiveness before they died and gave thier life to God, they are all damed, even if they never did anything wrong, and since religion is absent from the families in this show, no one is shown to have had any religion, or (like the twins) dies in the commison of a crime, hence negating any forgiveness they may have earned by giving their lives to God. 

      Interesting...

      I, of course ;) , am an atheist, so any referrnece to religious authority is meaningless to me. 

      I use the concept of God in a spiritual way not anthropomorhic.


      On no - the cousins were extremely religious - some kind of paganism but they were very very  devout - don't you remember? And in their religon in their concept of God ,they were not committing  crimes.

      So how can you say your religion is superior or more moral than their religion? It'sall relative.

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    • Tom Brunner III wrote:
      Cr8meone wrote:
      God would bless none of them,

      Everyone would to Hell, they all broke atleast one of the God's rules in the bible.

      Or in the case of Walt Jr, or Holly they never gave thier lives to God.  

      In the biblical view, unless they asked for forgiveness before they died and gave thier life to God, they are all damed, even if they never did anything wrong, and since religion is absent from the families in this show, no one is shown to have had any religion, or (like the twins) dies in the commison of a crime, hence negating any forgiveness they may have earned by giving their lives to God. 

      Interesting...

      I, of course ;) , am an atheist, so any referrnece to religious authority is meaningless to me. 

      I use the concept of God in a spiritual way not anthropomorhic.


      On no - the cousins were extremely religious - some kind of paganism but they were very very  devout - don't you remember? And in their religon in their concept of God ,they were not committing  crimes.

      So how can you say your religion is superior or more moral than their religion? It'sall relative.

      No they were Catholic, a very radical version of it, but Jesus Malverde is a folk saint of Latin American Catholicism, like a Robin Hood figure.

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    • Cr8meone wrote:
      No they were Catholic, a very radical version of it, but Jesus Malverde is a folk saint of Latin American Catholicism, like a Robin Hood figure.

      They were part of the Sant Muerte Cult.

      And in their world view they were the good guys ie motivated by moral codes  and a code of conduct (in a criminal cosmology)  as opposed to say Gaddafi Loyalists  who were motived by personal greed etc. and deliberately reviled any such personal codes.

      Santa Muerte (Spanish for Saint Death), is a female folk saint venerated primarily in Mexico and the United States. A personification of death, she is associated with healing, protection, and safe delivery to the afterlife by her devotees.[1] Not sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church, her cult arose from popular Mexican folk belief, a syncretism between indigenous Mesoamerican and Spanish Catholic beliefs and practices.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte

      Association with criminality
      In the Mexican and U.S. press, the Santa Muerte cult is often associated with violence, criminality, and the illegal drug trade.[42] She is a popular deity in prisons, both among inmates and staff, and shrines dedicated to her can be found in many cells.[43][15][44] The majority of believers are poor people who are not necessarily criminals, but the public belief in her by several drug traffickers and small numbers of other petty criminals has indirectly associated her with crime, especially low-level organized crime.[16]

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    • Back to the Psychotic Todd debate: I don't think he's truly psychotic, but definitely a sociopath. He does not fit the DSM criteria for psychosis, not even the very preliminary definitions:

      "Diagnostic Criteria
      According to DSM IV, the following criteria must be met in order for the individual to be diagnosed for Schizophrenia:
      Criterion A: two or more of the following symptoms must be present for a significant portion of time during a one-month period (if the condition has been treated successfully, then the period may be less).

      Delusions
      Hallucinations
      Disorganized speech, such as frequent derailment or incoherence
      Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
      Negative symptoms, such as affective flattening, alogia, or avolition".
      Also indicative of psychosis are the presence of voices, either talking to the person or to each other. This symptom alone can be used without the others to diagnose schizophrenia.
      From: Diagnostic Criteria. According to DSM IV

      1. These are the very basic markers of psychosis, and are qualified by stages or other, more drastic symptoms such as hearing voices.
      2. Todd fits NONE of these. But I will say that he's quite a disturbed person, almost totally lacking in conscience. One minute he's chaining Jesse up in a cage and the next day, bringing him ice cream and discussing the stars!


      Todd exhibits none of these behaviors, except a quiet delusion that someday, Lydia will reciprocate his infatuation. If that were indicative of psychosis, then lots of people would fit the criteria!


      HOWEVER, I would definitely call Todd a sociopath (most Nazis are!). Here's why:
      " Antisocial personality disorder is a type of chronic mental condition in which a person's ways of thinking, perceiving situations and relating to others are dysfunctional — and destructive. People with antisocial personality disorder typically have no regard for right and wrong and often disregard the rights, wishes and feelings of others.
      Those with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others either harshly or with callous indifference. They may often violate the law, landing in frequent trouble, yet they show no guilt or remorse..."

      That seems like Todd to ME.
      From: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/DS00829/

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    • I will give you that he is much more of a Sociopath when compared to a Psychopath when I compare the two, I don't think I called him Pcychotic, although I may have in the heat of that debate. I just fo know that he way a totally wack job.

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    • OfficerOpie wrote:
      Back to the Psychotic Todd debate: I don't think he's truly psychotic, but definitely a sociopath. He does not fit the DSM criteria for psychosis, not even the very preliminary definitions:

      "Diagnostic Criteria
      According to DSM IV, the following criteria must be met in order for the individual to be diagnosed for Schizophrenia:
      Criterion A: two or more of the following symptoms must be present for a significant portion of time during a one-month period (if the condition has been treated successfully, then the period may be less).

      Delusions
      Hallucinations
      Disorganized speech, such as frequent derailment or incoherence
      Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
      Negative symptoms, such as affective flattening, alogia, or avolition".
      Also indicative of psychosis are the presence of voices, either talking to the person or to each other. This symptom alone can be used without the others to diagnose schizophrenia.
      From: Diagnostic Criteria. According to DSM IV

      1. These are the very basic markers of psychosis, and are qualified by stages or other, more drastic symptoms such as hearing voices.
      2. Todd fits NONE of these. But I will say that he's quite a disturbed person, almost totally lacking in conscience. One minute he's chaining Jesse up in a cage and the next day, bringing him ice cream and discussing the stars!


      Todd exhibits none of these behaviors, except a quiet delusion that someday, Lydia will reciprocate his infatuation. If that were indicative of psychosis, then lots of people would fit the criteria!


      HOWEVER, I would definitely call Todd a sociopath (most Nazis are!). Here's why:
      " Antisocial personality disorder is a type of chronic mental condition in which a person's ways of thinking, perceiving situations and relating to others are dysfunctional — and destructive. People with antisocial personality disorder typically have no regard for right and wrong and often disregard the rights, wishes and feelings of others.
      Those with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others either harshly or with callous indifference. They may often violate the law, landing in frequent trouble, yet they show no guilt or remorse..."

      That seems like Todd to ME.
      From: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/DS00829/

      All of this is true. However, I bet that all these traits fit just aswell on Walter as they do with Todd.

      If you want to put it into a discussion of morality, isn't Walter White, who made a consciece desicion to turn to a life of crime and murder for his own personal reasons, worse and more "evil" than Todd, who we have every reason to believe grew up around Jack's nazi crew and was raised to become this sociopathic killer he is? To me it doesn't seem like Todd understands what love and empathy is, Walter does but he does not acknowledge it.

      So I don't think either of them were born sociopaths, they just both turned into ones. Todd through his upbringing & environment and Walter by the Gray Matter betrayal which he never tried to deal with in a more healthy way than letting his anger and hate grow inside him over the years. 

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    • "So what you are saying is to be sucsessful in life you need to be allies with psycho's who are willing to gun down kids on their own wims..."

      It's just "psychos" and "whims," not "psycho's" and "wims," baby doll.


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    • hey.Returning back to Lydia. 

      1. The temperature factor. 

      80C would've spoil the poison.

      Although it was mentioned some hot coffee issue right in Abq, the tea does not brew without the 95-or so Celsius. It's simple. Maybe some chemical tea but...

      For sure, by the time the tea came to the table the temps gone down a bit...but not much. And the fact that some one sued McD's (an example) for hot crotch is a common thing in many countries. But it does make a case if the waiter spilled it on you. If you are clumsy and spill it on yourself... it's like you are sueing some normal shop because the pork meat they are selling contains fat.It is a fact that drive-in coffee usually is served at lower temps to avoid burns from spill while driving (and i'm from a country with far less regulations).

      But we're not talking about coffee. We are talikng about tea, and the fact that it needs more then 95C. 

      2. The dose issue.

      disscused before. 

      3. The way that was administered.

      disscused before  

      4. The early warning:

      It does take one to five days to die from organ failure - so medical attention would've help for sure. In the eastern europe there are reports of people accidentally ingesting ricin seeds... (you can confuse them with some kinds of beans) and guess what - they lived. 

      Ask a pharmacist.  If you want poison to work, eat few dozen seeds (or a just few crushed) and do not tell the doctor. If you tell him (before the mejor sympthoms) he will do a huge gastric wash (don't know the exact english term), and put you to intensive care. And, you will have a lot of chances. Especialy in a country that has one of the highest levels of medicine in the world. 

      5. The poison itself ...

      It is not a champ by far.. For the sake of art(or the script) the series overinflate the power of the poison ... But it is not stricnine, potassium cyanade or arsenic. the american APCC states that " two Castor Bean fatalities were recorded in the period from 1999 to 2004" And there are other syntetic substances that can kill for sure, without any kind detection even with a delay(prodrug). But those shouldn't be paraded on tv.  

      6. The DEA involvment: 

      they did not know about the ricin... the whole kid poisoning stuff was recorded by APD so... It's not like Walt was a serial ricin poisionist.

      7. The infamous call to Todd's cell:

      She was calling to ask if someone was finaly killed. She had a Burner.  One hundred meter radius localisation form the GSM antennae if you do it realtime. Even so it would be circumstantial. Easy fix even for Saul. No fault for her. Someone in her area called Todd. Suspicious. Yes. But do we have have proof beyond resonable doubt? No. 

      8. The nasty woman/eastern europe factor.

      She was corporate and fairly rich. I doubt that she would've wasted time calling some hitmen for Walt's family. I believe that she would've called the ambulance, her personal MD, some poison experts and a huge team of lawyers.

      She could've hired someone to kill walt's family as they weren't going anywhere. But it was not the urgent matter. Lidya said at some point that she has powerful partners in EEU.

      E-Eurpeans  know the simple fact that if you are and american and want to deal (not only drugs... but everything) in the eastern europe you have to make regular trips in D.C. or in Little Odessa neighbourhood from NY. Gus, indeed, operated like he came from that part of NY. Inconspicous owner of a restaurant...:DLidya didn't apear to be a vindictive woman. She would've coverd her tracks. And the facts showed that she was resonable (the whole stuff with Mike, the fact that she did not hire other hitmen to do the job that Todd refused). And the wife situation was already coverd. The bald guys are all deal.. Jesse would be a hit.

      9. She was fairly discrete. 

      Besides the dead people and jesse, no one seen her.

      And it is not seen that Jesse knows who the gang deals with. Being a hostage does not make him a guy that knows who with who's who.

      Altrough Jesse seems to be a victim at the end of the show, he wasn't clean at all. Murder, accessory to murder, meth production and selling... Witness some DEA agents being killed after he took them to some remote desert location. I think even Walt could've use this in his favour. Jesse could've been acussed for trapping the DEA agents.I wonder how it worked for him. (but I guess I'll read on this site in the same manner I've read about Lydia)  

      10. The lips on the mug.

      damn... that was at least 6 months before. Todd would've done a lot of things with that mug. I don't even want to know...   

      10+. Spin-off

      There are roumors about some show with the lawyer.  

      this is it.. she is alive.

      anyways... full of flaws, bat a damn good show.

      I'm not native english speaker so I probaably have some grammar mistakes. sorry for that.

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    • http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/ricin/qa.asp

      There's no antidote for Ricin poisoning, it is possible that she could of gotten treated but it kills within weeks if not days. The state she was at was a very bad one, I'm guessing she would of died about 2 days later with or without treatment.

      She's dead.

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    • She is most likly dead, remember Walt poisened her at 11:00AM, then it was about 12:00PM when Walt tells her, he poisened her. Also ricin can kill you with in minutes. And their is no antidote to Ricin either. Best case scenario, she is dead.

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    • She is dead. Vince wouldn't just let her live.

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    • Lydia dies.  It has nothing to do with length of time, amount of ricin, hot water denaturing ricin or anything else you can possible think of.  All that matters is one simple thing.  Would Walt leave anything to chance if he could remove that possibility?  In this fictional universe, the answer is no.   Walt is/was highly inteligent and meticulous.  In planning the death of Lydia, he would remove any chance of it having any other possiblilty than what he choose for her.  Looking for proof?  The writers wrote Walter a P2P formula that does not exist.  Meth that is 99.1% can not be blue unless it contains a significant amount of impurity(s) but it "fictionally" exists in Breaking Bad.  Why not then, have a ricin formula that has a 99.1% chance of death?  Walt would leave not chance after his death that she could harm his family.  She died, end of story.  Just like everyone in the compound.

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    • even if she dies due to magical incurable ricin, she could still hire a hitman to get revenge on walter's family. Telling her about the ricin made absolutely no sense, so either walter did something very stupid blinded by hubris (and lydia could survive and/or get revenge), or the writers didn't think this through (which would be a little disappointing from the series).

      note: the hubris thing sounds like classic walter to me.

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    • She simply has no contacts for hitmen, as Saul said, very few existed.

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    • Ricin can be treated, but as far as I'm aware once the symptoms start showing and it enters the bloodstream, you're doomed. Keep in mind that Lydia was pretty much given pure weapons-grade ricin extracted by a master chemist, not those crappy castor beans that get mailed to Obama every few months. Lydia is screwed and she probably keeled over a day later.

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    • Lydia was the final "big bad"- she put the hit on Walt. To work out whether she dies or not could be interpreted by whether we believe that Walter died in the final scene or not (I have a theory that supports the former). If Walter lives then she is dead- Walter has defeated her. If he dies, then we could entertain the idea that Lydia could have survived the "dual". 

      If anything, the fact that we don't know for certain if Lydia dies, leaves the Walter survives interpretation open since the writing formula typically leaves one of the duelers alive (but scarred). 

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    • OK, if Lydia somehow does survive, she may be in for a rough time of it, especially if she seeks medical help.


      I don't see her doing what Mike Ehrmantraut does for medical help, which is either to go see a veterinarian as we have seen in "Better Call Saul" or Gustavo Fringman's physician like we saw at the end of Season 4 after Fring takes out the Cartel.


      But that kind of medical attention is probably what Lydia Rodarte-Quayle would have needed to keep the fact that she was poisoned by Ricin quiet--and I don't see her doing that.


      Instead, I see Lydia calling for an ambulance and being wheeled off to a hospital with an emergency room and once it is learned that she was poisoned by Ricin, count on Homeland Security getting involved and guess what, they will want to know how she got poisoned and she may wind up confessing to all her misdeeds at Madrigal Electric Motors.


      And if she does that, following a request that Mr. Herzog made to the DEA back in "Madrigal" (BB S05E02) to root out any elements tied to Peter Schuler's criminal work in the foods division, the DEA and their German, Czech and even Chinese counterparts will work to expose Lydia's contacts in those subsidiaries and they too may have connections to Lydia's other criminal activities, from getting the Methylamine from China to Long Beach, from Long Beach to Tulsa, from Tulsa to Houston, and from Houston to either Fring's, Walter's, Declan's or even Jack Welker's organization where they use that Methylamine to make Meth, and then use Lydia's connections to get that Meth out to Europe and Lydia's contacts at Prague and possibly at Hannover and Madrigal's world HQ.


      And if Lydia survives, she's going to have a hard time doing it.

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    • All of this to say she'd better die

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    • Unless I missed it in my scroll, she also put out a hit on Mike and a crew member, with the latter being killed. Given how fussy she was in every diner scene it was a well deserved ending for her. Let’s presume she’s dead, we’ll all feel better about it unlike Lydia.

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    • A FANDOM user
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